Min's Undebatable Multi-Prowess

"There's a confidence in having gone through something that is difficult and then come out the other side still intact." - Min.

I describe Min as a contradiction of sorts in a good way. She offers complexity to her career and life which keeps her a fascinating person to get to know as my new friend. She was a world-ranked varsity debater and a public figure, with one surprising expertise that breaks her preen stereotype. Join the eavesdropping to enjoy another lesson about words connected to humanity.
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Transcript

Wish 00:00:02
Human Thesaurus is an intersection between vast lexicons that best describe our human nature. It's my conversations to highlight people like you and me doing what everybody do best while equating them to their own synonyms. Hello, dear humanity. Welcome to Human Thesaurus I'm your host-slash-ardent, Wish Ronquillo Peacocke.

Wish 00:00:33
Min is a seasoned writer and communications professional who has worked for multinational corporations, startups and nonprofit organisations across industries spanning consumer technology, telecommunications and education. She loves food like me, gadgets, and is an ardent Krav Maga practitioner. Wow. A former world-ranked varsity debater, she is an advocate for promoting critical thinking and open public discourse for the advancement of society. She also believes in harnessing information, innovation and technology as tools people can use to empower themselves, share ideas and better the world, and supports enlightened, compassionate and respectful leadership focused on value creation above profit generation. She should be like a beauty queen. This is a better answer for everything. Min holds a diploma in Mass Communications from Ngee Ann Polytechnic here in Singapore and is currently working as a freelance marketing communication strategist. And I think she's really doing very well. So I met Min through a very close friend of mine, Jo. So since I came back from Singapore, I was very willing to open up to the world. We're still in pandemic times, but I would love to meet Jo's world again, not being able with her in the past five years. So we had dinner and she told me each and everyone that she invited and I thought Min at first, like, she's very quiet, but she listens, her ears are perked up and I could see how observant she is. And then she's the first one who would laugh at my sarcastic or even just like monotonous jokes. So she just gets me. And I think that's when it just clicked in our brains, like, I like you, we get along, we will get along, you get me, you know? So those kind of things. My synonyms for men are volta as a noun, deliberating as a verb, and composed as an adjective. Within this conversation, you'll further understand why I describe her as such. So here she is. I thought I won't murder her name: Min Cheong-Subramaniam.

Min 00:03:06
You did well on that! Hi, my name is Min. Same as the word coffee as a noun, punching as a verb, and introspective as an adjective. I like the word strong and dislike the word politics.

Wish 00:03:26
Oh, thank you about that, yes. We're not going to talk about politics or whatsoever. I avoid that. That's a no-go for this show.

Min 00:03:34
Yes. And religion as well.

Wish 00:03:36
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I just respect everybody's opinions even though they're cookie nuts for me sometimes. But we leave it alone. Okay, so what's been happening with you recently?

Min 00:03:50
Okay, so I actually recently started a short in-house stint as part of my freelance job in the American Club, and that's been pretty interesting. I go in to the office about three to four days a week, and I just handle communications there. And also, as you know, another thing that I think was quite significant that happened in the past couple of months. I spoke to you about it. My husband and I, we experienced a little mishap in our lives, which was a miscarriage, early miscarriage thankfully, that's still quite a difficult experience, right?

Wish 00:04:31
Okay, let's unpack this little by little. We're going to unfold all of these. Number one is I would like to thank you for trusting me with that news when you messaged me, to be honest with you, I kind of knew that you were pregnant. When I was talking about my miscarriage, I just had a feeling, even though we don't really know each other that well yet, I told Jo after that dinner, I messaged her, I think I'm being so insensitive. I think Min is pregnant. I just had a feeling. And I was like, I feel bad because I could not have brought up my story because hers is a better news than the Debbie Downer, my story. So when you kind of told me that you're going to tell me something, I was like, uh-oh, and then you told me, so I'm so sorry about that, because I don't know if you were planning to tell us at that time, but how's your process? Because we all have to go through a different process in the way we think about miscarriages, and it's not really talked about without the taboo. So can you share with me yours and your husband's experience and your way of thinking? And where are you now in your mindset and in your emotions right now?

Min 00:05:57
So, interestingly enough, that dinner that we had, right. I didn't know at that time that I was pregnant, but it was really interesting that you had that kind of intuitive sense. I didn't even know. It just goes to show, I think, how sensitive you are emotionally as well about these things and the things that you pick up. And maybe that's why I felt so safe talking to you about my experience and how comfortable I felt opening up to you about it. And I think just having someone who also kind of went through the same experience and shared the same...

Wish 00:05:57
Shared tragedy

Min 00:05:57
... it helped me a lot, and I think it gave me some peace, I think, being able to be that vulnerable with people around me. And I agree with you. I think I recently shared a post on Facebook about it, and I didn't know whether I wanted to talk about it so publicly. And at many junctures, I think I put it off. But eventually I felt that it was something that was important to say, not only, I think, for my own closure and to put my experience and my husband's experience into words, but also because I know that there are a lot of women who experience the same thing but don't talk about it. And they don't talk about it for a few reasons, which is they've never even announced their pregnancy. Right. And so in a sense, there's no springboard of a conversation to even get to the topic of their loss. And those who have announced it, I think, still feel uncomfortable talking about a topic like this in a way that is so visible to just more than their close friends and family.

Wish 00:08:03
Yeah, I agree. And I think I've learned a lot with our miscarriage because you would not really know what it is and how it is. It's not just like the physical thing, it's the entire journey of that tragedy that it's hard it's hard to understand. You can only some people, you know, we can only sympathise if we never experience it, but now that we experience it, it just gave us another layer of wisdom in a way. And really like the peace that you claim, having gone through all the emotions of it, right, it's different. What do you think about that? Do you have the same feeling?

Min 00:08:51
I think there's a certain kind of peace you feel knowing that you overcome or at least you've experienced a loss that can be quite transformative but also come out stronger and you understand yourself and other people actually, who have experienced similar losses a bit better as well. So I think there's a confidence in having gone through something that is difficult and then come out the other side still intact. With a deeper level of wisdom and a deeper kind of respect for yourself in a way that's not about patting yourself on the back. But it's kind of like you see yourself differently as well and then you see people around you who have also experienced these things differently with a renewed kind of respect and renewed almost an admiration for the kind of strength that as a collective we women possess.

Wish 00:09:54
Yeah. It's also profound to think about this because it's a common thing, right, it's a common thing, apparently, but it still doesn't feel common at the same time, when you view the world differently through your own, let's say, reproductive system in this way and also the dynamics of you and your partner going through it because it's not just us, right, it's our partner. What do they feel about it? It's nothing less. It's not lesser than what we feel. What was your process with your husband going through this entire experience? If you can share a little bit of it?

Min 00:10:39
Yeah, he was actually really I know if he was a bit weird to say this, but he actually took it in quite a positive way, which was helpful for me as well. And his perspective was basically that it was an early miscarriage and if it was going to happen better it happened early than any time later in the journey. And I really do agree with that because for a variety of reasons, not just physical, but also emotional as well. So I think that was a perspective that kind of helped me to centre myself and to use as a sort of like a point of emotional reference going forward, and the fact that he was just always supportive of me and always very sensitive to what I was experiencing and at the same time very communicative of what he was feeling as well. I think that really helped a lot. And at the same time, I think our relationship, I think, is characterised by the fact that we are radically honest with each other. And I mean that in the strongest of terms. I don't know, I think it's quite interesting because we don't hide anything from each other, including, for example, if I'm feeling insecure or if I'm feeling jealous or anything, or if I have a concern that I think is like, stupid. And I would probably not reveal to anyone else. We've made it a point in our relationship to just talk about it, but it's really freeing. It's very liberating to be able to do that with someone, to sort of lay your ego aside and lay your own pride aside and say, you know what? We are one in this union and there shouldn't be any sort of like walls or seekers or any kind of pride that inhibits conversation and communication and connection.

Wish 00:12:40
Yeah. So I think that what they call that... the ribbon that ties your flower of a relationship together is really the confidence with each other. And then there goes love, respect. Those are the flowers and the stems in your relationship. And then you've got this ribbon of confidence, which is always ideal. And I think I've kind of heard the gist of your relationship or a little bit of gist of your life, that it's amazing and it's wonderful and you're blessed to really find a very good partner that you really, really deserve.

Min 00:13:21
Yeah, thank you. And it's not easy to find someone like that in anyone's life, whether it's a friend or a life partner or family member. I think it's difficult to find someone that you can just entirely trust, I think, especially for me as well, because I think I'm the kind of person who's a little bit I'm a little bit of a...

Wish 00:13:42
Are you guarded? That was my first observation.

Min 00:13:50
I don't know. The thing is, I think, ironically, I'm guarded because my sort of natural inclination is to be really open and it's not like I've been burned before or anything like that, but I think maybe over the years I've felt a little bit protective of that openness. And it's an openness that I want to share with people that I choose. But at the same time, I'm also not afraid to just speak my mind to a wider audience, like to the public. It's not something that I shy away from. But I think I've also kind of developed that kind. It's not a wall, but it's a little bit of a telling myself that I should choose who I open up to if I can.

Wish 00:14:40
Choosing wisely. So that's why it took me a while. I was thinking about this for a while. How am I going to describe you with a noun and a verb and an adjective? Because I keep on turning around and around and keep on changing the words because this is crazy, man. I think we're really connected because even though we only met quite a handful of times, I kind of like getting who you are and then also like we have this regular little banter on Instagram messaging. But sometimes when you meet people like that you don't really know them as much. But I kind of got to a point that I'm beginning to really understand you and you're like a contradiction of things in a good way, in a very good way. So I was just like, what are the right words for this? Because it's such a contradiction. So I needed to dig deeper on my lexicon, on the synonyms and I was like, what is the perfect one? So that's why I said Volta is in music, it's like a turn or in a prose or a poem, it's like the turn. You use volta mostly in Sonnets. So it's like the turning point of the poem, of the story. So I just feel like since you're a contradiction of everything, you're always turning. That means it's not just the evolution, it's not all of us evolve, but you have this certain kind of contradiction to you that was so good. Like for example, I see you, you're always beautiful, primp, put together, proper. I told Jo she's very beautiful and then you're doing Krav Maga and was like, who would have known? It doesn't connect, it's her. When you stereotype some people, sorry, but all of us would have this kind of biases. Right? So I was just like you're so always... like she's put together and then you're doing Krav Maga. How did you get to Krav Maga in the first place?

Min 00:17:01
Right, okay, that's the story behind that as well. Okay, when I was working I met Jo in Samsung when we were both working in the same business unit and she left. Yeah, I can't remember when she left, but it was before I did and I stayed on that company but I moved to a different business unit and that was when I met, I guess the person who in essence helped me to become that kind of turning point that you're talking about. Well, not in a good way. Initially she was a very toxic.

Wish 00:17:40
Okay.

Min 00:17:40
I didn't know vocal and you see, you're right in saying that I embody a lot of contradictions because I can be really outspoken and I can be quite assertive. But strangely, in that situation, I lost that fire maybe because I was tired and overworked and in that sense a little bit vulnerable, but I wasn't able to stand up to interactions that weren't good for my mental health. And slowly that sort of eroded away at my self-esteem and it wasn't long before I actually had a breakdown and it was really quite sudden. I was at work and then all of a sudden I just said, I can't do this. Right? In fact, that morning I was at home and I had to go to work and I couldn't do it. And I said, you know what? There's something that's wrong with me, like mentally or emotionally. And that day I went to see a psychiatrist and I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression and I made the choice. As much as I loved my portfolio, as much as I loved working in that space, I just knew that I couldn't remain in an environment that had such a negative effect on my mental health. And so I left. But it did take me a while to build myself up and I had to go for therapy, which was actually really good. One of the best things I did for myself, I think. And I discovered a lot of things that explained why I sort of reacted to my boss doing those interactions, right? And so I will forever tell people that therapy is really useful. It's not even just about, you've had a mental breakdown, you need to go for therapy. But there are a lot of things that therapy can do to help you sort out your perspectives and like a lot of your, I guess, inner healing, inner child issues. And that's quite transformative, actually. So well, as part of that healing, I decided, you know what? I'm not going to take shit anymore. I'm going to find something like an activity that will help me build myself up. And I looked around and I was like, you know what? I remember years ago my friend saying that he had sort of dipped his toe into Krav Maga. He didn't like it very much, but that came to mind and I said, you know what? Maybe I'm going to go for that. I'll check it out, I'll try it. Because it's about self-defence, it's about standing your ground and being resourceful and surviving. So I thought, you know what? That was a really good activity, a really good physical, kind of almost like a catharsis for me. And so I took it up and then I fell in love with it. And also because I had a really good coach who is not my friend and he was really, I think, instrumental in building up my mental toughness, not just my physical fitness, but also that sort of like mental fortitude, emotional strength. And I think that's why I really started to... 

Wish 00:17:40
Rise from the ashes. Yeah.

Wish 00:21:12
I would think, right, that's another misconception or another taboo. Like when you see a therapist, that means you're weak or you're crazy, but it's not it's just really it goes to show time and time again that sometimes the best thing is talking to strangers.

Min 00:21:33
Yeah.

Wish 00:21:35
And unbundling all this. It's a mental massage. It's a mental deep tissue massage.

Min 00:21:44
I was going to say that you go to the spa, you go to a massage therapist right. To sort out your sore muscles.

Wish 00:21:53
Yes.

Min 00:21:54
And so why wouldn't you make sure that your mind is in tiptop condition?

Wish 00:21:58
Absolutely. Because if your mind is not in tiptop condition, everything just falls apart. Especially it shows physically, too, right?

Min 00:22:07
Yeah. Especially for someone like me. I can be quite tied to my emotions. I write as part of my work, quite prolifically, and I've noticed throughout my life, but it's something that I've noticed, that if I'm not in a good mood, I don't produce.

Wish 00:22:26
I'm the opposite. I'm the opposite. When I'm angry, I'm very productive. It's weird. I know. Okay, let's do a fun part too, because this is another curiosity. I love that. I think you're one of a kind of a profile, you're just not in the box type of a person. So how did you become a world-ranked varsity debater? Like, why did you choose debate or someone chose it for you. Someone discovered that you can do this. What's your history with that one? Because that's amazing.

Min 00:23:05
Okay, so while you're asking all these really insightful questions, because there's another story behind that as well.

Wish 00:23:14
Yes, please.

Min 00:23:15
When I was in school, like primary school and secondary school, I always felt that I didn't quite have a voice or I wasn't able to speak with my own voice. Not necessarily that I didn't fit in, but maybe that I was still searching for my place in social groups. And I guess, broadly speaking, in the world, you don't really realise it, or you don't really articulate that search when you're a child, but essentially it's still that you're searching for your place in the world. You're finding your voice and your identity. And I always kind of felt that I had a lot of things that I wanted to say and talk about and explore, but besides maybe a couple of really close friends, I don't know whether or shy, I'm not sure, but I just never was able to really come into my own and I kind of never quite recognised the person that I was to the world. I knew that I had an inner self, but that wasn't the person that was expressing herself. While I was always known for writing well, I didn't know whether I could speak well either at the same time. And so when I went to Poly, which was actually quite not a very popular choice at that time, everyone thought that going to JC- Junior College was the right, more prestigious path. And I decided to go to Poly because I had had it with the secondary school system. College part of that system where you wake up really early in the morning, you wear uniform using the national anthem, and it's all very regimented. So I didn't want to do that anymore because I kind of felt that that was part of why I felt a little bit limited in just experiencing the person I was, and also because I knew that I wanted to study MassCom straight away. It was a no-brainer. Right. Just go straight to Poly.

Wish 00:25:21
Right.

Min 00:25:22
And it was there with that when I think I was I think when I was walking around the CCA or the Co-curricular Activities Fair, you choose what sort of, like, extracurricular that you're going to take that you wanted to do. So I think I came across the debate booth.

Wish 00:25:46
Okay.

Min 00:25:47
And then I just kind of signed up. Right. For fun.

Wish 00:25:50
Wow. So you didn't just think you just went there and you're, like, debate... interesting. Okay, I'll sign up. Yeah.

Min 00:25:58
I think I went for my first session, and we were all asked to give a speech, or maybe not just a speech, though, like, to argue a certain point. I think that was the exercise. My coach said, hey, you really have it in you to be an awesome debater. And I said, oh, hey. Really? So I guess I kept going, and I ended up doing pretty well there, and I made a lot of friends that are still my friends now. One thing I really like about debate is that it forces you to see an issue from multiple angles against your own bias as well, because sometimes you have to debate a topic from a perspective you don't necessarily agree with.

Wish 00:26:48
Okay.

Min 00:26:48
But you're forced to kind of think about why someone would argue from that point of view and why there is some validity in a perspective that you may not quite resonate with but also has its merits. And I felt that really opened my mind. It made me a bit more open-minded. It made me more tolerant. Because some people kind of think that debating makes you more argumentative. It makes you more, like, competitive. But if you sort of really embrace it, what it is, I think it makes you more definitely more open-minded. You can see from different perspectives, and you at least, I think, one step closer to being able to empathise with groups of people or ideas that you may not really want to take on for your own, but at least you have that sort of openness to that.

Wish 00:27:40
Wow, I didn't see that perspective at all because I hate arguing. I really hate debating. I'm not confrontational personally, but I am highly confrontational at work. Completely different. Completely different. You're laying it all out in the best way possible. Well, of course, because your world-ranked... I didn't see it that way. That it creates an environment where you become more respectful and open-minded to hear out other people's view of the world instead of just rejecting it immediately. That's beautiful. So having had that as a tool at a young age, how did that carry you in your career, in the real world when you set out there? How did that carry you?

Min 00:28:36
I think it helped me to sort of be able to talk to a lot more people that I may have felt inclined to. At least they gave me the skill set to be able to communicate effectively and to also foster an understanding of where they were coming from. And so when you have that as a basis for a relationship or just a conversation, you're not speaking or interacting from me versus someone else kind of perspective, you're able to at least say, okay, well, I get your point or I get your perspective. I may not agree with it, but I know that that's what you feel and think, and I can see why you might feel that way or why you might believe in something. And then I guess that helps to put people at ease, or at least it helps people to not feel as if they're being judged just from the get-go. And I suppose as a communicator, someone who works in marketing and communications, it's always very advantageous to be able to know what someone might be thinking, your target audience or whoever it is you're writing for or you're trying to market to. It's really quite important to have that understanding of your side so that you can be as effective as possible in crafting your message and engaging with them. I think that's really important, that kind of engagement. And that engagement exists when somebody feels that you understand them because it's authentic. And it's really quite a lot easier than people would think to know whether someone's being real with you. They can see all the right things or they can behave in a way that seems acceptable. But as humans, we know, right, we have a sense there's like this radar and we know when someone's being authentic and real and when someone's putting on a front or when someone is trying to get something out of you in that moment.

Wish 00:30:43
Yeah, but there are lots of BS in this world.

Min 00:30:45
Oh yeah. That's why I said I don't like politics. We're not going to go into politics, but because I see politics not just as global politics or the politics of a certain nation or region, but also things like office politics, things like where there is a battlefield of agendas. And I think that is what I don't like about the connotations behind it.

Wish 00:31:12
The corporate BS, corporate politics we both hate that. Not just dislike, hate.

Min 00:31:22
Yeah. I think it stems from the fact that I guess we both don't like the whole pretence of situations. Because I always told my husband, right, I would rather someone just be honest with me than either sugarcoat their thoughts or hide something from me, just spit it out and at least then I know what to do with it. It may not be the nicest thing, but at least I know and I don't have to guess and I don't have to try to interpret what something means, what it could relate to. Just spit it out.

Wish 00:31:58
Yeah. I just feel like it's a waste of time. If it's not good, then tell me. It's not good, don't say it, like behind my back or just spit it out. So that's what I did, but I created a lot of enemies, I think. Not everybody gets the straightforwardness or the frankness of not wasting time. If you don't have the virtue of it, you're not going to appreciate these frank conversations. Right. It sounds hostile, but you're not. You would always know. Also, with the tone, I feel that we're more respectful if we're honest with each other rather than beating around the bush, then you're wasting each other's time because, like, what you said, you will overthink it. It's like, what does it mean? And then if you interpret it in the wrong way, then you waste time and time is money in this world, especially in the workforce.

Min 00:33:03
I'm not actually the most confrontational person myself and one of the things I had to deal with in therapy was to stop being a people pleaser and to draw boundaries around my own interests, not in a way that would be selfish, but in a way that would allow me to give more of myself to people that matter.

Wish 00:33:23
Yes.

Min 00:33:23
Again, it's interesting because, like you said at the start, it can be a bit of a bundle of contradictions. So while I really appreciate, like, frankness and honesty and I endeavour to be the same, it sometimes can be difficult for me because I'm always kind of like, deep up I'm worried that even though I know I'm being honest and that's a good thing, I'm worried that I might offend someone. But that's also why I like being honest and I like being on the receiving end of honesty as well, because I am a big overthinker.

Wish 00:33:56
I get you, but that's the thing. I think that I would advise you that I have to learn myself as well. It's all about your sensibility, it's not about the sensitivity that you're thinking, like, how you express yourself, so I think you're just being sensible, so how you're expressing yourself and how you're balanced, it's a balancing act, right? Because there's still a thin line between being hostile or being really just frank, so you have to know how to read people as well and temper that in a way that it's sensible.

Min 00:34:33
Yeah.

Wish 00:34:34
So some people think, oh, I'm just being honest with you, but it's hostile, like, you're not being sensible, but the way you're thinking, it's just sensibility, so you should not be ashamed of that or you should not think of it as something else. Because you're just being a very sensible person. You evolved with all of these things, right? Like who you are and the things that you do in marketing and comms. You're also a public figure who doesn't really like the politics of it all. What's your advice to younger listeners or other people who are younger than us that are still very naive and still impressionable? How do you balance that as a public figure? How do you balance the PR portion of things versus the truth, versus the authenticity? How do you balance all of them?

Min 00:35:32
There's actually kind of a few aspects to this. When I set out, or rather when I made the decision to step forward in a more public capacity, I remember telling myself that I would not compromise on the person that I was meaning I would still share the same memes that I would normally enjoy, even if they were slightly more risqué.

Wish 00:35:59
We're adults.

Min 00:36:00
Yeah, right, exactly right. And that I would just continue to use my own voice because that was important to me. It was important to me to not change. That sort of the essence of who I am. I think it was important on a few levels one, because I didn't want to be changed by the pressures of being in a more public role and also because I genuinely feel that people can relate to others. Basically, people can relate more to you if you're real, if you're not trying to put on a front or if you're not trying to design and craft a certain kind of image for yourself. I mean, of course it's important to sort of be able to sell yourself, right? It's not that you don't try and it's not that that's not important. It's selling yourself in a way that is genuine that I think people, especially younger voters or younger individuals, want to see more, which kind of fits in very well to my own natural inclination anyway. And the other thing is I sometimes find this role difficult, particularly because I'm quite sensitive to criticism, naturally, but to my own expectations. I do find it a little bit challenging at times to be out there in a way that makes me want to pursue values or things that might not be the most healthy. So for example, there's always a desire. There's always maybe not so much a desire, but there's always a sense of competition in this space for airtime, for visibility. It serves a bigger, I think, set of interest to be public and to be as visible as possible. Because if you're championing a certain set of causes, you want to be visible for those causes as well, right? And you want to be visible so that you are able to work effectively as a public figure. It does require you to kind of be out there and to be known and to be active. But at the same time, that can create an unhealthy desire for the visibility and that's something I think I've had to grapple with internally to always pull myself back and say it's not that important to be popular or well-known for popularity sake or for the sake of being visible and there's no need to compete with other people in the same space in a way that is actually detrimental to your own sense of self and mental health.

Wish 00:38:45
Yeah. This applies to any influencers out there, right? Yeah, I get it. That really makes a lot of sense. At the end of the day, you do what you do and you're still evolving, you're still really campaigning for all the causes that you wanted. But what is the legacy that you wanted to leave because you're a public figure, so personal legacies are different, but for you, what's your professional legacy as your goal to keep on going with this challenging role that you have in this world? Professionally.

Min 00:39:27
One of the things I really hope to push for is for critical thinking in society and also for more people to feel comfortable in their own skins and speaking in their own voice and sharing themselves with the world. I think that's quite important in a way that lifts other people up if you have a certain talent or if you have ideas you want to share with the world. I do hope that more people have that the confidence or the support and conducive environment to be able to do that. And for me also. It's really about critical thinking because I think that really empowers individuals to see the world in a way that is a little bit freer from the kind of narrative that established figures or even the forces of conventions and norms what have you see in the world if you can think and if you can express yourself and if you can engage with other people to explore different perspectives and new ideas. I think that will help you to charge your own way forward in a way that is most true to yourself.

Wish 00:40:39
Beautiful. Yes, that is a very good legacy and we really hope that society will push towards that positive side of things. Critical thinking, I think that's the key word here that we really need and you're inspiring that and that's fantastic. So please keep going, no matter how difficult it is. I think we need people like you in this world to keep people in line in terms of that agenda of critical thinking...

Min 00:41:11
And also to support each other. That's really important.

Wish 00:41:16
Yeah. Support system is really essential, isn't it?

Min 00:41:21
Yeah.

Wish 00:41:22
In closing, what's the word or phrase that you can impart to our listeners and why?

Min 00:41:28
I think interestingly, I never really thought I would be using this word, but I think kindness, to be kind to yourself, to not always sort of be harsh on yourself, your shortcomings or where you are in life, to be kind to yourself. I think that's important because when you are kind to yourself, you're going to be able to draw a certain kind of strength from not beating yourself up. Right?

Wish 00:41:57
Yeah.

Min 00:41:58
So I think kindness is actually quite linked to a healthy internal resilience and strength and also to be kind to other people.

Wish 00:42:05
Yes, thank you for that and I really enjoy our conversation. It's fantastic. And I really hope to see you soon.

Min 00:42:14
Yes, I hope to see you soon, too.

Wish 00:42:16
Yeah. And thank you so much for hanging out with me. This is a wonderful conversation. And as a new friend, just for a few months, this is a very good catch up. And the difference is that everybody's listening, which is fantastic, too. Yeah. Let's gather the girls and let's have a crazy laughing dinner again.

Min 00:42:44
And you're always welcome to come by and then chill out and hang out anytime.

Wish 00:42:57
From this episode. One of the most important words about life is rumination. It is the process of carefully thinking something over, pondering it or meditating on it. It's similar to words cogitation, consideration, deliberation, pondering, agonising, indecision, introspection, premeditation. Peter Kindman, a professor of clinical psychology at the University of Liverpool, quoted:"Rumination tends to be eased if we learn to be mindful, if we are able to be aware of and understand how our own thoughts work." End quote. At this point in time in our lives, overthinking is a highly infectious social anxiety because there are too many stimulations everywhere, in the media of all sorts. They're even in our hands for how many hours every day. The best way for us to free ourselves of overthinking I e. Ruminating is to quiet our minds, find peace, find that space where you feel safe for yourself. Ultimately, we have to be kind to our thoughts, we have energy, and you have to be wise how to use them. Everything that you're thinking, everything that you're putting in your head, scenarios of stuff, you are only putting power to it depending on how you place that scenario. Sometimes it's not even worth it, isn't it? It's just best to be honest to ourselves, honest with the people that we're ruminating about or any situation. But ultimately, you need to be kind to yourselves on how you think. If you can't quiet your mind down, probably, you can reach out and ask for help if you need it. There's no shame in that. 

Wish 00:45:34
Thank you for listening to Human thesaurus Please rate and subscribe and follow me on Twitter or Instagram. Your support is highly motivating for an indie podcaster like myself. Trust me. Join me again next week for another episode.