Justin's Jazzy Tesseract-ions

"Success only comes before work in the dictionary." - Justin.

If a human being runs like a machine, it is Justin. He is in the high tech & innovations industry and the current CTO for Microsoft based in Singapore. He's also a sound engineer and a multi-talented musician, plus a CrossFit freak. Listen and catch up with how his mind runs, how many beats per minute, and how I am used to keeping up with him.
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This episode's show notes & transcripts: https://www.humanthesaurus.co/episodes/justins-jazzy-tesseract-ions

Podcast website: https://www.humanthesaurus.co
Licensed Music by Ketsa

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Transcript

Wish 00:02
Hello, dear humanity. Welcome to Human Thesaurus podcast. I'm your host slash inspirited Wish Ronquillo Peacocke.

Wish 00:17
Justin brings over 20 years of management and high tech experience in areas ranging from research and development, engineering, product management, large scale sound systems, mobile and web application deployment, and interactive multimedia installation technologies. That's very long. He patented taking Google Street View underwater. He once taught a robot to play a musical instrument. In another time, he once taught a humanoid robot how to sing. He is passionate about driving positive change through technology and enjoys colliding the worlds of technology and music to create new experiences. Apart from that, he's an excellent public speaker, and he just never runs out of ideas. I met Justin at a tech and music conference here in Singapore. Probably that was 2010, if I could remember correctly. He was presenting. He was from Google at that time, and I was just so enamoured the way he presented with an audio visual, highly elaborate two laptops playing in the background and with music. And it's really an immersive experience for me. And I was like, I've got to know this guy. So, um, after that, he was swarmed by people, and at some point, I was like, I'm just going to squeeze in there and just introduce myself. And since then, we party, we drink a lot together, and we just, um, combined ideas a lot. And I always feel that we mesh together because he's got this, like, super huge, big ideas. And then I like to put them on paper, like in a practical mode, like how to execute them. So at some point, we work, uh, together in, um, my last job. So he's the reason why I moved to Australia, because we worked together there, and it was a phenomenal time together. So my synonyms for him are cookie jar as a noun, estimating as a verb, and kinetic as an adjective. So I would like us to welcome Justin Baird.

Justin 02:43
Hi. My name is Justin. The same as the word technology as a noun, innovate as a verb, and creative as an adjective. I like the word Tesseract. I dislike the word ego.

Wish 02:59
Okay. A lot of our listeners probably would be curious what's Tesseract?

Justin 03:06
Um, so it is an interesting word. It's actually hard to describe a little bit, because as humans, we kind of are used to things in two dimensions and three dimensions. So let's say you see a picture, you're looking at a two dimensional image. If you look at a sculpture, you're looking at a three dimensional object as well as the world around us. But a Tesseract is the same thing as a Cube, except it's in four dimensions. So it's not something that we can see, and it's not necessarily something that we can understand with our senses, but it's a quite interesting concept. So I've always just really liked that as an idea. We live in three dimensions, but what could we do if we could process four dimensions and technology allows us to play with those type of things these days, right?

Wish 03:57
That's right. I love the concept as well as what they mention also. That's why I know the word. But, yeah, we should be using it a lot. And knowing you, there should be more behind why you use that as your favourite word. Like what's going on with you. You always have so many things going on, but can we catch up on some of them? Can you share some with me?

Justin 04:25
Yeah, sure. Of course. I kind of have, I guess perhaps I would describe a multitasking kind of life. Right. So, I really enjoy exercise and being outside and doing gym stuff and all that. I also really enjoy the kind of work I do in more of the professional space of working with technology and helping large companies and all that kind of stuff. But I also have this huge passion for bringing music and technology creativity together because I just love that idea of being able to use technology to create positive change. So I think that's just all those different areas happening at the same time. And, there is a big and interesting world happening these days with all the stuff happening with Blockchain and all this, but especially with NFT. So some of the things that I'm looking at now is like the generation of I'm looking at actually how to generate artwork in four dimensions and then imagine an artwork in four dimensions that then you can extract views of in three dimensions or two dimensions. So there's some interesting things happening there with some of my collaborators with regards to some of the AI work that we're developing just now.

Wish 05:43
Wow.

Justin 05:45
Yes, I'm excited about that.

Wish 05:46
Yes. I'm just going to cut because you have a lot going on. Right. What would be the fourth dimension? How are you going to grasp the fourth, like three dimensions? And then the fourth is what type of sense in our system that will kind of spark or get aroused for the lack of better word with the fourth dimension.

Justin 06:18
So I guess what I'm suggesting is, let's say if you wanted to create, like an artificial intelligence system or if you wanted to create something that could produce artwork, like people are doing that today. But a lot of times people would kind of just say, well, you're just using a computer to replace humans. And my thought on this is that I don't want to create a system that's just going to replace what a human can do. I want to create a system that can do something that humans can't do. So, for example, humans are not able to generate art in four dimensions. And so what I'm suggesting is, um, you could imagine the parallel of this is to say, I've got a camera and I'm standing in front of a statue that's been an artist, uh, has created a statue. I'd say, wow, this is really amazing. And I take a picture of the statue as an image, and, um, I can take that away with me, and I can share that with people. I could show you a picture that I took of that statue and say, hey, Wish check out the statue. It's really cool. It's nothing like what you would see if you were there in person, because you yourself would be able to see it and walk around it in three dimensions. So imagine that. What this, um, would do is you would create an artwork in four dimensions, and the only way that humans would be able to properly see this is either by taking a three dimensional picture of that or a two dimensional picture of that, and you could get different experiences of that artwork based upon which dimensions you're observing it through.

Wish 07:51
Right. Is it going to be in parallel with Metaverse?

Justin 07:57
It's not so specifically tied to Metaverse in that regard, but I think that, for example, if you wanted to see this digital artwork in the Metaverse then you'd be looking at it rendered into three dimensions. So the Metaverse is kind of limited to three dimensional navigation.

Wish 08:17
Wow. Cool.

Justin 08:20
Anyhow, so I'm just on this new idea, um, and really excited about doing something with it, so that's been consuming me in the last 24 hours. Yeah.

Wish 08:29
You never run out of ideas. Justin and I were just hanging out a few days ago, and we were playing Cards Against Humanity, and a lot of ideas even came out of there. Right. You never run out of ideas.

Justin 08:47
I've actually never played that game before, so it was very entertaining. Yes, indeed.

Wish 08:51
Yeah. You have the beginner's luck for ***** sake.

Justin 08:58
For sure. I'm enjoying that kind of stuff. And, yeah, um, I think also just being here in Singapore, I feel like there's just a ton of opportunities. I mean, certainly COVID is stopping a lot of different things from happening, but at the same time, I feel like I'm just finding a way to be optimistic and thrive within the environment that I'm in at the moment. That's been interesting as well to make that happen, too.

Wish 09:23
Yeah, just the backgrounder. Justin just moved to Singapore, 2020. He's from Australia. So how is it going? Because when you went here, it's at the height of the pandemic. Right. And then you started working for DHL, and how did it go, like, from that time till now? Where do you think you are being approved from all the comforts that you had before?

Justin 09:54
Yeah, well, I mean I feel like it's been a really great experience. First of all, I've been to Singapore many times before, just never really lived here. And so the kind of experience of coming to Singapore is not necessarily a surprise but just like when you live someplace for the first time, you discover all different types of things, you get much more into the culture and kind of what's happening around you. For example, I love cycling and the whole time, uh, that I would come to Singapore, I never cycled down the East Coast right now. Um, I've done that, of course, many times and discovered that in the process. So it's been fun. When I, um, came to Singapore, it was kind of in the peak of the. It was actually right after the circuit breaker finished.

Wish 10:37
Right.

Justin 10:38
So I was in a hotel room for two weeks but I came to that hotel room with musical instruments, with my bike. So I had my bicycle on a trainer so I could cycle, looking out the window, all that kind of stuff. So even though I was in the hotel, um, room for two weeks, I actually never turned the television on the whole time.

Wish 11:03
Wow.

Justin 11:03
I was there. Well, so I got out of the hotel after a couple of weeks and kind of got into society, so to speak, here. And yes, that was really interesting. That's when I kind of discovered I was living pretty close to the East Coast Park there and kind of got into doing all that and DHL was an interesting experience. I was here kind of the running innovation centre that was based here in Singapore, as well as kind of being the head of Innovation for Asia Pacific. So lots of interesting things happening there and getting into kind of a new business and new opportunities and that was all, uh, going really great. And then actually I wasn't looking, for a new role or anything, but a friend of, a friend referred me into, Microsoft for some new roles that were happening and I kind of couldn't say no to that. So I've kind of taken on this new role as the chief technology Officer for Microsoft here in Singapore. So that's been really exciting and I've actually now just been doing that since. For about the last five months.

Wish 12:04
That's fantastic.

Justin 12:05
So that's been very exciting.

Wish 12:06
Yeah.

Justin 12:07
So, yeah, I think one of the big things for me is I certainly love what I'm doing with all of that. But I think also I've always been kind of a bit more of, I guess maybe a networker, like meeting people in all different areas. So not necessarily, just focusing on meeting people in the technology space, but always kind of getting out and doing lots of different things. So for example, I play in two different music groups. One's kind of more of a jazz group, so a bit more technical music and then another one which is more of like a bar band. So, yeah, I'm excited, um, about that kind of stuff. And just through the musical connections and my gym and work and all these things. It's just great to kind of expand and meet a lot of people here and always just be doing lots of interesting, fun things.

Wish 12:56
So for your jazz band, is it kind of the same when you were in Sydney? Kind of the same vibe, same kind of music that you play.

Justin 13:07
So I think people that weren't musicians would probably say, yeah, it's kind of similar. But the group that I'm working with here is a lot more, let's say technical. So, um, we do a lot of alternative, um, time signatures. Most music is like four beats per measure. And we'll do music which has got more beats or different syncopations, different that kind of stuff.

Wish 13:29
So it's a little bit more like a step up because of the technicality. So that's what's challenging about jazz, isn't it?

Justin 13:37
Yeah, it's more technical. And the joke is that, um, when you go see, uh, a jazz group, there's more people on stage than there are in the audience, because the people that are playing the music probably appreciate it more than the audience appreciates it.

Wish 13:52
Yeah.

Justin 13:53
But no, actually I think that the jazz scene here in Singapore. Even though it's small, it's actually really a pretty strong community, which is nice. So I've had the opportunity also. So as you mentioned in my introduction I've got a background in audio engineering and worked in the professional audio space for a long time. So I've actually had the chance to go to the Esplanade and mix a couple of shows, both in inside the Esplanade as well as the outdoor stage. So I've met a lot of musicians through that kind of work.

Wish 14:22
Well, wow. So the other band, what do you normally, play and can you play nowadays, like in public or is it allowed?

Justin 14:32
The restrictions are supposedly being relaxed, like this month in February. So hopefully we'll be able to actually start playing out some more. But right now we're rehearsing and putting together full show. So, I rehearse with one group down at a recording studio in Joo Chiat and then the other group in Chinatown.

Wish 14:56
Wow.

Justin 14:57
And what's nice is the Chinatown space. Have you ever heard of Tiny Desk, like NPR radio?

Wish 15:04
Yeah.

Justin 15:05
So we do this thing we call Tiny Gig. So it's our recording studio area, the rehearsal studio area. And then we have one big couch that four people can sit on.

Wish 15:16
Wow.

Justin 15:16
So we have a very small audience. But having a small audience of a couple of people makes a big difference in the way you perform. So it's good, it's good practise.

Wish 15:27
Like how?

Justin 15:28
Well, I mean, when you've got people there, you can't just stop.

Wish 15:31
Right.

Justin 15:31
Oh, let's try that again. Oh, that's messed up. It's like the show must go on. It's a very different kind of way of doing stuff.

Wish 15:38
What type of music?

Justin 15:40
Again, very the one where we can do the Tiny Gig stuff is the jazz group.

Wish 15:45
Um, okay.

Justin 15:45
But then the other group we're just rehearsing now there's a couple of bars and clubs that we've got some gigs already kind of getting lined up at. And that's kind of like we're doing a few cover songs, but then also original stuff. So it should be exciting to do that as well.

Wish 16:01
What type of music? So the other one is jazz.

Justin 16:04
So kind of like danceable-approachable. Like, kind of more mainstream pop style. But I wouldn't say pop. Sorry. I should say more like funk.

Wish 16:13
Cool.

Justin 16:13
So probably not like R&B funk kind of style. Like, the guy has a voice that's kind of a bit more like Stevie Wonder kind of style.

Wish 16:20
Oh, really?

Justin 16:22
Yeah. So it's not like hard rock or anything. There's not a lot of heavy metal distortion or anything. More stuff that people would like to hear.

Wish 16:31
Right. Remember that time that we have a band together?

Justin 16:36
Yeah, that's right. In Chicago.

Wish 16:39
Oh, um. God, that was one of the funnest things ever. Yeah.

Justin 16:44
Oh, God, that was. We put a band together. We should talk about that. That's the kind of stuff that we would do together. Right? I would say, hey, wish I want to get everyone together for this, uh, thing. And so we were going to, like, this company off site with people coming from all over the planet. And so literally we said, hey, let's put a band together and put on a show or something. And you, um, helped make that whole thing happen. We ended up with what, a keyboard player from the UK, a drummer from Amsterdam, singers from India, and somewhere in Ireland, Germany. And then from the Philippines. Guitars from the Philippines.

Wish 17:27
Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Justin 17:29
Yeah. That was awesome.

Wish 17:30
Yeah. It's not pro, but it's fantastic to just get this together.

Justin 17:37
It's a lot more pro than I think anybody would have expected.

Wish 17:39
That we hacked it, too. Come on.

Justin 17:45
Well, that's the best part, right? It's like live improvisation.

Wish 17:48
Exactly.

Justin 17:49
Yeah.

Wish 17:50
And we have a limo, uh, like a real band.

Justin 17:53
Everything's better when you have a bottle of Jack Daniels and a limo that makes you feel like a rockstar.

Wish 17:58
I know you gave me Monkey Shoulders. Like a bottle of Monkey Shoulders somewhere along that time. Yeah, but that was so phenomenal. I think our adventures together are just over the top crazy. Take all the ups and downs of that gig. I mean, it's not a gig, but I'm just going to call it a gig because it's more positive for the both of us in our past job together. I think there's a lot of meaningful experiences, and it just really justifies how your brain works and how I could kind of understand and structure it because you're crazy, batshit crazy with ideas and then I am too. But mine is a little bit more pensive than yours. You're more free. Like, free. Let's just put it out there. It's crazy as it is. And then for me, it's like, oh, how am I going to structure this? There are a few times that I have to shout at Justin because he's got this. He would enter the office and say, hey, I've got a new idea. This is what we're going to do. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then for me, logistics, logistics, logistics, strategies, logistics. Say, what am I going to do? What are we going to do this? But in the end we do it.

Justin 19:28
Yeah, well, I think lots of times people would ask me, how do you try to make these things happen? Whatever. And we used to say this as well. So it takes two no's or one yes. In other words, if somebody says no the first time, you don't just say, okay, you got to try again or figure out a different way to do it. Like the project that we worked on together about this robot that was playing this musical instrument, that project got cancelled at least six times. I think as we were making it happen, we still made it happen. So I think that's a lot of like, if you have the ambition to make things happen, then it's worth following whatever's guiding you to do the things that are going to be successful.

Wish 20:15
Um, absolutely. There's some kind of tenacity as well. That is part of it. And the energy that you're feeding on. Because I think when you build this team in Australia, you really handpick the people, which is a plus, because not everybody can do that as a leader. Sometimes you just have this leftover people that you just have to adopt when you get hired. But I think you handpicked the right people, you know, who are the people you want to work with. And there is an energy, um, there as well, because all of us believed in your vision. So every time we get knocked down by the lack of budget or belief or really just politics, plain politics, we just have to push through. So I think we all picked up a very good value at the end of the day, getting out of there, because of politics. But, what we've created there was just phenomenal.

Justin 21:22
Yeah. I think also, like, bringing the right people together. And then I think having a team that believes in each other and also kind of, I guess it's a good thing for everyone to just know what people's thoughts and plans are. And I think that was a big piece of like, we talked about a team and managing the team, but we didn't manage it like that. Right. We were more like everyone was the same. I might have had to sign off some papers or something or sign people vacation or whatever. But other than that, everyone had a seat at the round table.

Wish 22:00
That's right.

Justin 22:01
And I think that that was one of the things people feel like that gives people the strength and ambition to do things. So I think that's always the way that I like to try to create teams, whether it's a small startup or whether it's in a big company. If you can create that type of environment, everyone starts to thrive.

Wish 22:17
That's right. You're actually making me realise something right now. I've realised so many things about that throughout the years, but you're making me realise one thing as well. I think that's why our team was so terrifying, because it's that it's like a utopia in a corporate world. If you find something completely different, like people really working together and people are useful and people are really making it happen and really having that gel, that strength together. I think it was terrifying for a lot of traditionalists who's been in that circle for quite some time, don't you think?

Justin 23:04
Yeah, very true. And in situations like that, you also have to realise that we are the oil in the water. And so you've got to, um, I guess be careful not to offend anybody too much, but then also try to achieve a vision and a goal. So I think that's why we had such a good time for, um, a duration until the politics at a different level took over. Right. So, yeah, it was great while it lasted, I think.

Wish 23:36
Yes, totally. I mean, no regrets. There is so much energy that you exceed all the time. What do you do when you're idle? Do you even have an idle time at all?

Justin 23:55
I guess sleeping is idle.

Wish 23:57
How long do you sleep?

Justin 24:00
I actually sleep very well. Okay, yeah. I can't say that every day, just because having so many different activities and stuff, I'll end up sacrificing you a couple of hours of sleep here and there. But for example, um, last night, I can tell you I slept for. I'll tell you exactly.

Wish 24:19
He's looking at his watch.

Justin 24:21
Um, my Woop band. Uh, the W.H.O.P. Band. I slept for eight minutes,

Wish
8 minutes?!

Justin
8 hours and five minutes.

Wish 24:33
Oh, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. That's really good.

Justin 24:38
But I would say I usually don't get that every day. That's probably a false advertisement that I do that I probably get closer to seven each day. But, yeah, my downtime, my downtime. What I would do in my downtime, I'd probably be playing some music or writing a document, about something or stuff like this, I guess. I mean, I do like to relax and I enjoy relaxing. So it's not like I'm a crazy workaholic that wants to work all the time. I enjoy the kind of social aspect of things and everything too. But, yeah, I think on a given day, I'll probably be working on something, just pushing projects along. And I think that that's the way that I realise that I work the most efficiently. I mean, lots of times people say, don't multitask because you'll not get anything done. And I do agree with that. But at the same time, I don't necessarily multi task, but I'll spend a little bit of time on this thing and then I'll spend a little bit of time on this thing, a little bit of time on this thing, and eventually over time, all of those things progress.

Wish 25:36
Yeah. So I think it only works for certain type of people because, I'm the same. Like, I love doing multiple things at the same time, hacking them away pretty much. And then I feel like we feel more productive that way because you're catering to different sides of your brain or different parts of your imagination. If I focus on one, I tend to feel bored and demotivated.

Justin 26:08
Yeah, after a certain amount of time for sure.

Wish 26:10
Yeah, totally.

Justin 26:12
Yes. And I think that that's a good way to think about things as well sometimes. And I've tried to do this in some cases, sometimes it's not possible. But again, if you try to do it, then it happens most of the time. Maybe not all the time, but you try to basically create, make time and meeting time. So if you've got it and you're stuck on Zoom calls all day or whatever it might be, you've got to try to find some time where you literally just block out your calendar and you've got time to do something. So I kind of call that make um time. And they do say, ideally, if you had 90 minutes, say, of non distracted timing, um, you get a lot more done in that time than you would if you had that chopped up into 30 minutes pieces throughout the day.

Wish 26:52
Yeah, I remember you sometimes. You're like, okay, nobody disturb me for 90 minutes. I'm going to finish a presentation. Yeah, got it. That's really cool. What's in store for you? Like, you have a lot of projects and, um, a lot of them. I know apart from Microsoft, and I'm sure it's already a huge enough thing that's happening with you. But what else is in store with you this year?

Justin 27:25
Yeah, I think kind of talking about what we were just discussing a little bit earlier. This thing about the Tesseract concept. I'm actually working on that. I've made a pretty significant commitment to that and I'm really going to spend a lot of time focusing on that. I feel like this Tesseract project is something that comes from an idea that I had probably over two years ago now and I think all the moving parts have kind of finally come together. Like there's a University researcher who I was working with on another project and he's recently,  moved from one University to another. And in that circumstance we've reconnected and he's now in a position to be able to help create some of the underlying tech that we need for this thing to work. This is brand new, hot off the press. Like, I literally spoke to him for the first time in years, a week ago and then it's all just happening now. So it's actually quite interesting. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to really making that a reality. And as I mentioned, this is a bit in the kind of art space music is involved, but it's also kind of an art thing. So there's a really cool programme out of the National Gallery here in Singapore, called the Y Lab, like the letter Y Lab. And I'm going to probably be working with them on this.

Wish 28:57
Okay.

Justin 28:57
As well. So I know the guys over there, so I'm planning on. Yeah, I'm trying to make this happen and actually get this thing as an installation in National Gallery for testing purposes. So we'll see what might happen. But that's my goal this year. I think that's my goal outside of my other projects and passions and hobbies wow. Is to make this thing happen.

Wish 29:18
I'll keep my fingers crossed because I would like to witness that too. Speaking of AI, let's, um, just go there because I just saw an article just recently saying that AI is not in fashion anymore and I'm kind of like annoyed by that because that's a little bit ignorant on that end. But what do you think about that?

Justin 29:44
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that most technologies go through that. They go through kind, um, of like this peak of inflated expectations and then people kind of lose interest. It's the same type of thing that happens on a different timescale with a news story or something is news for a day or two, but then people kind of forget about it. So maybe it's different lengths of memory, uh, but it's almost like people just kind, um, of get bored of things after a while. So I think what's really happening is that AI is now becoming practical and we are seeing practical applications of AI all over the place and these are, um, what we might call relatively basic or simple, um, AI. But it's actually starting to make some commercial sense for companies to be implementing these things. And I think a lot of people might not think that they don't touch AI on a daily basis, but a lot of the things that people are doing online, a lot of the things that people are working with or algorithms they might not even realise they're using or touching are actually using AI. Um, so it's kind of ubiquitous at a certain level. And then I think what we'll see is that as AI gets more.

Wish 31:00
Um.

Justin 31:02
Effective when self driving cars, for example, are a thing that we see commonly on the road. People be like, oh, AI is kind of coming back again. I think it's just like that. It's just people had been driving it kind of as a fad and what's happening with it and everything. And I think we'll see that come back again.

Wish 31:21
Yeah, I still see a danger. I think we're a big proponent of that responsible AI. And I'm still on a close watch on that part because it's still very dangerous and we were talking about it. Right. Just last weekend about what will be the third or, um, fourth World War be like.

Justin 31:48
Yes, very true. And a lot of that could be effectively fought virtually. Right. With cyber attacks and all the kind of things that happen along those lines as well. I think we've all got to be very careful about the way that AI is managed. But maybe the thing that people are talking a little bit more about now because there's been a lot more of a progression there is with quantum computing. So, for example, right now all of the encryption algorithms, um, that are used for all of the sensitive information being transferred, uh, around the Internet and people using the bank online and all this kind of stuff. So they basically say that quantum computers are going to be so powerful that they could just decrypt all of those messages, all those packets instantly. So maybe not so specifically thinking AI, but the power of the quantum computer. And I had the opportunity myself actually to run some experiments on Honeywell's question.

Wish 32:49
Wow.

Justin
Um, I know a little bit about the space. I'm certainly not an expert and I don't know the best way to programme algorithms into these machines, but one of the really interesting things that was just announced, like a week ago was that you look at quantum computers now under these crazy things with lasers and vacuums and all this stuff. I don't mean robot vacuums, I mean like vacuums. No air particles. These things only operate in the vacuum of space, we should say. Right, not the vacuum of space. And they just announced that they've now been able to create qubits, like a qubit is a quantum, the basis of the quantum computer. And they can do that in Silicon. Now, seriously, the same type of processors. The main reason they haven't been able to do it in Silicon is because of the error. So the error rates and that's actually still the problem. There's a lot of errors, but they're literally saying now they can get the error rates down to a point where you could make qubits and so forth. Oh, my gosh, that's going to really have a big impact over time. So, yeah, I think that might be what people are thinking of more for the future now. It's like what's the world going to be like when anyone in the world can just decrypt anything. So we need other solutions for that.

Wish 34:10
That's going to be another industry that's going to come out, I suppose, like you create the solutions, it will have problems, then it will create more businesses to solve those problems for those new solutions, right?

Justin 34:26
Yes, absolutely. For example, they talked about trying to not allow North Korea, uh, uh, to buy uranium or plutonium from the black market or something. Those are the kind of Cold War style scenarios like who's going to have the nuclear weapons these days? I think that's the next stage is that the technologies behind not only AI, but literally quantum computers. Giving quantum computers in the wrong hands could be just as much a problem as having nuclear warheads in the wrong hands.

Wish 35:03
I agree. For me, I'm excited because I think it will really create different types of jobs and way of thinking. So that's the exciting part. Although, yes, there's always a massive danger. So it will be great to keep on seeing. I think there are new little NGOs popping out out there for making sure that all, uh, of these new technologies are responsible enough or have enough accountability or kind of legality to them on where you draw the line.

Justin 35:41
Yeah. And there's a lot of responsible AI and most larger corporations, um, the Google, Microsoft and um, everyone in the world have kind of signed up to this and saying, yes, we should really only produce responsible systems. And when they say responsible AI, it means more than just like the AI not being too smart or making crazy decisions. It's more like responsible AI means that we're not just going to use AI to replace everyone's jobs as well. So it's kind of like there's cultural aspects as well as the actual technology aspect.

Wish 36:17
Absolutely. Um, but touching on that as well, on the humanity side that AI is supporting, um, which is a good way of putting it. You were talking about a lot of bias. Right. Like we've seen how much biassed AI could be and a lot of people of colour are still fighting for this because it's still not enough. Like bigger companies are still not enough. You're part of that big company too. So where are we in terms of these biases in data? Where are we going from here onwards?

Justin 36:55
Yeah, well, I mean, I think for anybody listening it's worth kind of just um, giving a little bit of a kind of context background on kind of context. Yeah. Because as an example, there was a project done uh, a few years now, a few years ago now, which was like an AI beauty contest. So the AI beauty contest was and this was like a whole bunch of different research groups in universities and other areas and what they were doing was training AI based upon the available data on the Internet. Uh, and so if you think about the available data on the Internet, a lot of it is not fully representative of all races and cultures around the world. Right now, with the Internet, there's still around, um, two to 3 billion people that don't have regular access to the Internet. And a lot of that is Equatorial countries, as well as a lot of Africa. And so there's actually not as large. Like, if you look at the overall corpus of publicly available images online, there's actually a lot less pictures of people with darker skin in those pictures. So, um, the AI, as if they're just left to train themselves, uh, would use things like what's the correlation between all of the various principles? So, I think, as you might know, they kind of, say symmetry, um, of the face is something that is a strong indicator of beauty, so to speak. If your face is more symmetrical than non symmetrical. But then the Ars would basically train the machines would learn based upon the available data. So if you just allowed it to consume all of the publicly available images, you would get a bias towards lighter skinned people. You could filter that down to countries and different things like that and remove some of it. But the point of the whole exercise was to say, well, look, if we don't have the proper hygiene, um, on our data sets, then we can actually create a biassed machine. And this is an example of doing that, of course, on skin colour and beauty and everything. You can have a bias machine based upon not having enough data or a data set that was not representative, uh, of what was really happening. So those are the type of things that you need to be responsible with when it comes to AI and the systems and things that are put together.

Wish 39:07
Yeah, but where are we right now? Where are these big companies right now?

Justin 39:13
The big companies, I think, are already in line with a lot of this. Like, there's already a lot of discussion and support for these type of things. And I mean, there's even larger companies that do work for other companies, like all of the management consulting firms and everybody else that are also kind of signed up to the same type of scenario. But I think it's just. Also, when we say responsible AI, it's not just about not having bias when it comes to people and that kind of stuff. It's also an important factor for making sure that you actually create systems that model the world correctly, uh, like data sets and all those type of things. So I think there's a lot to do with. We could call it data hygiene to make sure that such systems are actually, well representing the information that's available. So, yeah, I think larger companies are doing that. I think a lot of startups and everybody that's kind of using lots of these kind of cloud based systems. I think a lot of that is going in a really good direction from a kind of corporate space. It's really just a matter of what, um, happens if these technologies are kind of getting into the wrong hands and what the implications of that would be.

Wish 40:24
Right. It's a never ending task to keep a watch of all of these. Yeah. Okay. So in closing, what's the word or phrase you can impart to a listener moving forward? And can you expand on that?

Justin 40:42
I'd say, I think it's something that is true in almost all cases, which is that success only comes before work in the dictionary.

Wish 40:53
Yes.

Justin 40:55
And I think that's something that I always think about is, as you said earlier, I've got all these ideas and I'm always talking about ideas or anything. Ideas are not anything. Ideas are not valuable if you don't get the opportunity to really see them through and actually do something with those ideas. And I think that's a really important thing. If you're motivated to do something, if you want to write a book of poetry, you go and do it, which is amazing that you did that.

Wish 41:21
Thank you.

Justin 41:22
Right. It's that same kind of principle. So you've got to put in the work to find the successes afterwards. So, yeah, I've always really liked that phrase, success only comes before work in the dictionary. I think that's a really good statement, and I think it does kind of summarise the way that I approach things in my life as well.

Wish 41:44
That is beautiful. Um, as always, I always love hearing that from you, um, and reminding me of that. So thank you so much. And thank you so much for hanging out with me. Um, I'm sure you can guess again at some point, and we can have the state of Justin and his technology, and probably at that time, Test Direct would be an installation already. Let's just pull the universe back.

Justin 42:13
Oh, I hope so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Fast forward.

Wish 42:17
Yeah. Thank you so much. It's so nice to catch up with you.

Justin 42:20
Thanks.

Wish 42:21
I'll see you again for a drink.

Justin 42:23
Absolutely wish. Thank you.

Wish 42:26
From this episode, one of the most important words about life is indefatigable. It is defined as persisting tirelessly.

Wish 42:37
It's similar to words untiring, unrelenting, indomitable, persistent, tenacious, singleminded, dogged, industrious. Claude Monet, a French painter and the founder of Impressionist painting, quoted: "what is it that's taken hold of me for me to carry on like this in relentless pursuit of something beyond my powers in life."

Wish 43:09
We have a lot of goals and ambitions. Instead of covering down and fearing to face what we wanted to do. You just needed to try one step at a time. You don't need a grand gesture to just go for it. You just need to take these little steps put your ideas on paper or talk to someone about it. There's nothing really that you will lose when you try the paths are not straight all the time so you'd rather explore that and find something where success lies for you.

Wish
I hope you love eavesdropping. You should start thinking about your synonyms. What are they? Thank you for listening to human thesaurus podcast. Please rate and subscribe your support a great deal join me again next week for another episode. I'm your host Wish Ronquillo Peacocke, have a fantastic day and thanks for listening.

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